50% Basal Rate Decrease in 3 weeks

Lets take a look at episode 2. She has 22 units in her. Each unit is good for 80 pts. That would cover 1760 pts. Was there a typo in your post? If not, i see nothing mind boggling. Am i missing something here?

22 units of long acting basal insulin.

Also, dont put too much faith in that CGM’s reading, especially when your struggling to get her straight. I would be using test strips during these times. Most people use cgm to see how sugar trending by reviewing the arrows. I never trust my cgm when doing a correction. They are sometimes very inaccurate and always a solid 15 minutes behind real life.

Jason, im not sure, thats not how episode two reads. But if they are pumping long acting in at lunch with an additional 22 units, why? Thats humalogs job

@marinekeeper sorry, read the top portion wrong. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out the kid is being pumped full of excess insulin. 10 units for a high is crazy when 1 unit brings the BG down 100 points on average. @bcfbrian7800 how high was the BG when the nurse gave 10 units and called for 12 more?

Yes, 22 units was overly excessive. There was no way I would have followed any orders on that one. I think there was some obvious miscommunication on that one.

We use both finger pricks and CGM. CGM only for trends, as a result of our issues. No dosing, but it will alert of patterns and/or lows. The nurse at the school, at max, checks her sugars 3 times, even after these incidents. Except for extreme rises and falls, it has been within 20 points every time, which is pretty remarkable, actually.

I gave the 10 units (not the nurse) and made sure the nurse knew I gave her 10 units. She then called endo and they told her 12 more, which is WAY out of line. And correct, it is 22 total of fast acting.

The 1 unit for 80 was something put in place after episode 1. It had been 1 unit for 40 before then because we were battling highs.

Brian, Joe, and Jason @bcfbrian7800, @joe, @Jason1;

I am going to comment on this thread without specifically commenting about Brian’s daughter’s situation - she is not “my patient,” and I am just a retired Ph.D., not an M.D. (But having had T1D for 62+ years, and having done my dissertation in diabetes management, I do have a “few” insights.)

As Joe indicated above, everyone responds to insulin differently. I will use my own experience as an example - what you’ll see in this is that “long-acting” insulin does not always “perform” the way the published dose-response curves suggest. If you want to “relate” my example to Brian’s daughter you are welcome to do so - I am not saying that it applies.

Early in my years of treatment for T1D I was tried on NPH insulin - the preferred “intermediate-action” insulin at the time. NPH would not lower my blood glucose level at all, no matter how much I was given. So, after many weeks/months of attempts to manage my blood glucose levels with NPH I was switched to Lente insulin. Lente would actually lower my blood glucose levels so I stayed on it for several years.

Over the years (until I was in my teens) my several pediatricians would try to switch me back to NPH. It absolutely failed to affect my blood glucose levels, so, after several weeks of feeling horrible, my pediatrician(s) would switch me back to Lente and things would stabilize. So, I was shown to be an “outlier” in that I did not respond to the most-often-used intermediate-action insulin.

The concept of “split-doses” came along when I was a young adult. And then came “multiple-daily-injections.” At first my Lente dose was split to about 60% in the morning and 40% in the evening - things got a little better. But my blood glucose levels would always want to run high in the morning hours (here is where you shout at the top of your lungs, “Early-Morning-Phenomenon!” - that’s coming in a minute). A well-respected endocrinologist eventually wanted to try me on MDI, including a split dose of Ultra-Lente with Regular insulin to cover meals. What happened? My blood glucose levels would still run up into the 300mg/dl-to-400mg/dl range until about 11:00 in the morning and then it would often crash, and I do mean CRASH, to <30mg/dl. Now remember, this is prior to the time of the “GlucoMeter,” so the only way to check blood glucose levels was through venipuncture and waiting 6 hours for the lab to report the results - it just wasn’t ever done to evaluate my morning crashes.

I “limped along” with the above dosing strategy, always trying to minimize the 11:00am “crash,” until my physician said, “Let’s try this new Lantus insulin.” It was used to replace the Ultra-Lente in my MDI routine and the 11:00am “crashes” became life-threatening. We continued to adjust the doses of Lantus that I took in both the morning and evening but could never arrive at a succesful balance - either my blood glucose levels would run too high in the late morning, or I would crash like a paper airplane.

Okay, repeat after me, “Early Morning Phenomenon” combined with an atypical response to intermediate-action/ long-acting insulin.

I eventually went on an insulin pump several years ago, and, with my physician watching over my shoulder, I arrived at a dose-response ratio of 1 unit of Humalog per 30 grams of carbohydrates. My “correction bolus” ratio is similar - 1 unit per 100mg/dl when my blood glucose level is running high.

Here’s the “kicker” - my basal through the night is .35 units/hour. But at 7:00am it steps up dramatically to 1.35 units/hour and then cuts back to .65 units per/hour at 10:00am. I take 1 unit of Humalog to cover breakfast unless I simply eat too much - then “all bets are off.”

What’s going on here? It’s that early morning phenomenon when my body “pumps tons” of corticosteroids into my system, causing my blood glucose level to rise like crazy if I eat anything at all. If I don’t eat anything for breakfast (and that is seldom ever the case) my blood glucose level may rise modestly if at all). But, this early morning phenomenon is not “reliable” - most days it happens, but some days it doesn’t and then I have to “suspend” my pump or set a lower “temporary basal.”

By staying on my toes and adjusting my basal as needed during the morning hours I can manage a HbA1C in the 6’s. And that’s without “major” hypoglycemic episodes.

The moral to this story? The biggest challenge for me is the early morning phenomenon and the way it ends abruptly. It simply cannot be managed adequately and reliably using intermediate-action/long-acting insulin, especially when I use a “reactive” approach (i.e., “Oh, it’s 10:00am and my blood glucose level is high - I need to take “a bunch” of insulin” - and CRASH!). I have to treat the early morning phenomenon “before it starts” and then dial back my basal if the early morning phenomenon “takes a holiday.”

Brian, what I read in your post, if applied to me, is way too much insulin taken at the wrong times for the wrong reasons. Now, you can read into this what you want to.

I hope things get better for your daughter very quickly!

Bill

@bcfbrian7800 Hi Brian, and welcome to this TypeOneNation Forum. You have already received many suggestions here, so I’ll limit mine. I strongly agree with what Bill @BillHavins [we were both diagnosed at about the same time and have experimented with treatments that did not always work for us] suggests and add my words "that we are not robots that follow what is written in an User Manual. Insulin-stacking might be the culprit in your daughter’s case.

A good endocrinologist and/or Certified Diabetes Educator [a CDE] could help you determine your daughter’s proper insulin-to-carbohydrate ratios for the different timeS of day; my I:C ratios vary from 1:9 to 1:18 [at supper-time I only need 1 unit of insulin for 18 grams of carbohydrate whereas at breakfast I need 1 init for every 9 grams of carb - twice as much, in effect. Also, my insulin sensitivity factor / correction rate differs at different times of day.

Depending on the CGM she is wearing, you may be able to monitor and determine how long a period elapses before her BGL [body glucose level] begin to drop after insulin is administrated and also how long it takes before her BGL begins to rise after she begins eating a meal. I’ve bee using the Dexcom G5 and find that its accuracy for me is outstanding and very reliable and use that device almost exclusively for dosing - I’ve used that CGM to learn the delay my body experiences in responding to insulin and acting to the foods I eat. Yes, some type foods begin raising my BGL sooner than others.

Hello all. Thank you for your responses. The hospital and I finally came to a good agreement on the best course of action. Though I know the first two episodes were brought on by extreme doses of fast-acting, this past one should not have had the results it did (BG 191, 54 carbs, dose of 5 units with the result of being 15, unresponsive and taken to the hospital). My daughter takes Levemir as her long-acting insulin. While not usually significant, Levemir does have a period of peak potency in the body. Let me back up for a moment… the last time we saw endo, we raised the Levemir because of the dinner time and night-time BGs. These would have occurred when the Levemir was not at peak. Examining what happened at school these last few weeks, I believe it is clear that the Levemir was “peaking” in the afternoon at school. The reason this wasn’t an issue before is because the Levemir dosage was such lower than it is now. While at the hospital, the Drs. once again tried to do the normal routine of “Lets increase the Levemir some more.” After a lot of thought, the Drs. and I agreed on something I thought several months ago dealing with highs, and that is moving from 1x a day long acting to 2x a day long acting. This way, I am hoping for a couple of results: 1. Hopefully, the minimal, but present “peaks” will occur at different times of the day, without it all “peaking” at the same time, and 2. We can adjust one or the other to compensate for changes at certain times of the day.

Again, please note the use of quotes around “peaks” to mean that I know that Levemir doesn’t have a true peak like Humalog or Novolog.

Brian,

It sound like you feel more comfortable with the changes that have been made in your daughter’s insulin regimen. Great. That’s good to see.

By the way, how does your daughter feel about all of this? I can imagine she feels “pretty hammered,” and has little-to-no faith that these changes are going to solve the problem. After what she has been through that’s understandable. Please let her know that there is an “old guy” who has been through the same “stuff” and is really pulling for her.

Please remember that there are some people who simply do not tolerate the “new” long-acting insulin preparations (e.g., Lantus and Levemir). For some of those people the preparations do “peak.” And when they “peak” they “unload” (i.e., demonstrate a sudden release of insulin into the system). That’s one of the points in my above post - an “atypical” response to intermediate-term/long-acting insulin.

Please be very thoughtful about how short-acting insulin is being used with your daughter. An insulin-to-carbs ratio of 1 unit per 10 grams of carbohydrates would kill me. I’m serious - it would kill me. As above, I noted my insulin to carbs ratio is 1 unit per 30 grams of carbs. With that ratio I would take less than 2 units to cover 54 grams, and that’s assuming a “mildly active” pattern of activity. I don’t think I have ever taken 5 units of Humalog at one time. I don’t think I ever took 5 units of Regular insulin at one time, either.

Keep us posted on how things are going for your daughter. I wish her, and your family, the very best.

Bill

Bill,

Thank you for your response. I will let my daughter know that an “old man” with personal experience is pulling for her. One question I have for you is were you immediately this sensitive to the insulin or did it come over time. At first, Ally was very sensitive with about a max of 7 units for large meals. Later it became obvious we needed more insulin in certain circumstances. It has only been in the last month and a few days that the insulin has been making my daughter’s body very sensitive to her regimen. Thank you for your insights. I had wondered the same thing about the quicker release of Levemir because at times it seems to just dump all at once… We actually had another episode this morning, but caught it in time, so as to avoid a trip to the ER. This happened after going to 2x/day Levemir and administering the 2nd shot this morning. 300 carbs later and we finally read our first 300 number, after barely maintaining for several hours.

Hi Brian @bcfbrian7800, it is good to see that you caught your daughter’s falling BG and saved her from another trip to the ER. Hopefully everything will level out for her.

I was concerned when I read the amount of insulin she had for a meal of 54 grams of carb when her BG was 191; did I read it correctly when you say she took 15 inits of insulin?

My calculations differ; here is how I calculate:

Food Bolus: 54 gm. divided by 15 = 3.6 units
Correction to 120: 191 - 120 = 71 divided by 80 = 0.9 units
Total dose: 3.6 + 0.9 = 4.5 units

Please tell me that I did not understand correctly.

As to sensitivity to insulin, you can expect that your daughter’s sensitivity will fluctuate over time, and often with the change of season. “Change” is the one thing I’ve come to expect - just because I maintain excellent BG levels for a week doesn’t mean I won’t be bouncing all over the place the next day; like today had a severe low, over-treated and next thing I knew I had to dose to get me somewhat close to “in-range”.

Thank you for your post. The correction dose was 5 Units. Insulin to carbs was 1 unit for every 12g of carbs at the time. Her blood sugar reading went down to 15 on the EMS glucometer.

Oh, Brian! What your daughter is experiencing (the repeated “emergency” hypoglycemic episodes) just makes me hurt all over. All of you need some relief from this.

First, please do pay attention to what Dennis posts regarding numbers - he probably has the most complete log of diabetes-related numbers of anyone who is living with T1D. He knows his stuff.

Second, it would be inappropriate for me to suggest how changes should be made in your daughter’s regimen. All I can do is offer examples and insights from my years of working with kids and adults who have (had) T1D, and my own experience. As Dennis implied, a person with T1D slowly-but-surely arrives at a general system that will allow them to manage their diabetes as well as they can. What works for Dennis does not work for me - I’m “upside down” (my regimen emphasizes different things than his out of necessity).

For several summers I ran the “Junior Boys Cabin” at Camp Sweeney in Gainesville, Texas. It was the first summer camp that served childen with T1D. There were 20 “children” in my cabin. Each session lasted three weeks, and there were three sessions each summer. So I “rode herd” on 60 boys between the ages of 6 and 10 each summer, and tried to keep my teen-aged counselors in the cabin “alive” as well (they also had diabetes). Camp Sweeney had three boys’ cabins and three girls’ cabins at the time. Each cabin housed 20 campers plus counselors. What a neat, neat place it was.

I worked at Camp Sweeney in the summers when I was in graduate school in the late 1970’s - early 1980’s. And it was before the days of the “GlucoMeter,” and before “split doses” of intermediate-term insulin really caught on.

Why did I write the above? To address the issue of insulin sensitivity. It was different for each of the campers in my cabin. Just amazing. Two young men, the same size and weight, might take very different doses of insulin each day. And this one is kinda’ scary - one of my ten-year-old’s had to take a “slug” of 80 units of NPH each morning and his urine tests (that’s how we “checked” blood glucose levels at the time) still ran high every night.

In the Intermediate and Senior (teenagers) Boys’ Cabins the “average” daily doses tended to run higher than in my cabin. Why? Puberty. As a general rule an increased need for insulin is associated with puberty for boys and girls alike. The level of the increase is unpredictable and continues in the person until they are well into their young adulthood. As a person nears middle-age (assuming they are managing their diet and exercising regularly) their need for insulin declines. In other words, they appear to become “more sensitive” to insulin, but that’s not really what it is (long, long story).

As Dennis and I were growing up with T1D (and many of the other old timers, too) we did not have the tools that allowed us to make informed observations about insulin need. And, we certainly didn’t have the tools that allowed us to observe how our bodies responded to carb loads (well we could, but it sure wasn’t accurate by any means). Invention of the “GlucoMeter” allowed us to make those observations. And that helped us better understand the general topic of insulin sensitivity, and changes of insulin sensitivity that occur across the course of the day for some people, and from season-to-season for many people.

Remember this - our bodies are “dynamic” - because of this our insulin need, analogous to “sensitivity,” will change, often from day-to-day.

My need for insulin really began to decline when I started to manage my blood glucose levels very tightly in about 1972. Today I take a total of <20 units per day (via insulin pump).

What is the “secret” of managing T1D? For me it has been getting comfortable with the fact that it is “always changing.” And I don’t get upset when my blood glucose level “spikes” to near 400mg/dl - it will be okay, because I will do something about it and, eventually, my blood glucose level will come down to an “okay” level. But it doesn’t come down fast! You can’t “beat down” a high blood glucose level with repeated injections! You simply have to “follow your plan” ( for me that’s a correction bolus calculated at 1 unit per 100mf/dl that I’m “over 120mg/dl”). And then you “wait.” That’s all, get up and do stuff, and “wait” before you do another bolus. After four hours if I don’t like my blood glucose level I may take another bolus, but I seldom have to.

The other “big secret” (other than daily exercise and managing diet) is I have to “get the basal right.” If my basal insulin is not right I could bolus until I was blue in the face and I would never get my blood glucose level to run “normal” and “stay normal.” For me, I have to have adequate insulin “running in the background” (i.e., my “basal”) for correction boluses (and meal boluses) to do their job. With my insulin pump I run five different basals that change from one level to the next at set times each day. And I can tell I’m about to have to add a sixth basal.

So how can I tell I need to add a sixth basal? A “pattern” in my blood glucose levels has developed that indicates I need a little more basal for about an hour at a certain time each day. You never, I repeat, never make a change in anything based on a single observation (a finger stick, for example). It is only when you see a similar result at the same time of day for at least three days in a row that you make a change in your “routine.” Now, if my daughter offers me a scoop of homemade ice cream I’ll do a 2 unit “meal bolus” to cover the vanilla, but I won’t make a change in my routine.

Except when I post on this forum, diabetes takes me about 15 minutes a day (posting on the forum - that’s a joke - I tell long stories). Once you’re “in the routine,” it isn’t all that complicated.

I must share one more story about Camp Sweeney and then I’ll quit for now. As counselors, we had to continually monitor a particular intermediate girl camper who I’ll call “Cathy” (not her real name). When we went on “whole camp” activities, one of us, and often a medical student, too, was assigned to “keep her in sight and nearby.” Why? Cathy had, what we called at the time, “insulin resistance.” She was a little lady, about three-and-a-half feet tall and weighed about 60 pounds soaking wet. But, with her “insulin resistance,” she had to take over 70 units of insulin each morning (sometimes up to 100 units) if there was any hope of keeping her blood glucose level anywhere near “normal.” But sometimes (and it happened about once every five days) her insulin resistance would “disappear” and those 70 or more units of insulin would unload on her. Whoever was assigned to watch her had to listen to her carefully, and if she ever looked up and said, “I think I’m going low,” the counselor had to sit her down, send another camper to get the on-call physician, begin to infuse glucose gel into her mouth and help her swallow, while the medical student began to infuse one or more ampules of glucose intravenously.
We would sometimes infuse as many as three ampules of glucose before the episode would remit for the time being; then she had to be medically monitored for the rest of the day. I have often wondered what happened to Cathy.

Okay, my “secrets.” Relax. Don’t expect to “hammer down” high blood glucose readings with repeated boluses. Get the basals right. Treat emergencies, obviously. But don’t change anything in the overall treatment regimen unless a pattern develops.

By the way, insulin pumps are great - you can always turn them off during a hypoglycemic episode and then you don’t have intermediate-term/long-acting insulin rumbling around in your system trying to push your face in the dirt.

I hope this helps a bit. Give your daughter and family my best.

Bill

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Brian, you may be “over-correcting”.

With an insulin sensitivity / correction factor of 1 unit to decrease BG 80 mg/dl , 5 units of insulin would lower your daughter’s BG bu 400 mg/dl.

She also ate 54g of carbs.

Bill, thank you for your stories and experiences. I really appreciate what you and Dennis have to offer in the way of experience. My daughter’s experience may very well be like Cathy’s in a lot of ways. Multiple bags of D-10 were used to keep her afloat. It doesn’t happen every day, but it does seem to be a very similar time of day, and it has been happening multiple times in the last month. Once again, thank you for your wisdom!

That is what I was saying Brian @bcfbrian7800, if the carb ratios and correction factor are correct, her TOTAL dose [food + correction] should have been a maximum of 5 units. My calculations:

  • Food Bolus : 54 gm. divided by 15 = 3.6 units
  • Correction to 120 : 191 - 120 = 71 divided by 80 = 0.9 units
  • Total dose : 3.6 + 0.9 = 4.5 units

All these comments seem to have to do with adjusting insulin. The truth of the matter is that most of us even with insulin can’t handle a lot of carbohydrates at once. Insulin just doesn’t act fast enough to keep carb doses in check unless everything is timed to a tee before and after a meal, and even then females have lots more hormonal ups and downs than males. So, it took me years to adjust my carb intake to more closely let the insulin deal with it. Eating greens with toast at breakfast allows the toast carbs to require less insulin. There is lots of juggling you can do, which is harder for children. Packing lunches would help. We only get to eat 1/2 cup of spaghetti noodles for instance, but a school lunch will probably provide a plate full of noodles, perhaps 2 cups worth? Eating fewer noodles will mean you don’t have to give so much insulin and have a lesser chance of crashing in the afternoon. If you eat half of a hamburger bun, you need less insulin. Good luck. With a few adjustments to diet and insulin, you will soon be on a more even keel.

Another point about carbs, many people don’t know this, but the US regulations for Nutrition labels allows that AL values may be wrong by + or - 10%. So the 54 gm carb you mentioned may run anywhere from 48.6 gm to 59.4 gm. That makes it hard to balance precisely with insulin because you are aiming at a target that may be in a different place than you thought.

Just another confusing factor for all diabetics. The best way to counter this problem is to reduce her carb load, which may be difficult for a youngster.

The other thought from my 63 years of T1d experience is that for SOME Type 1s a whole different approach MAY work, as it did for me. Actually it started being used when I was about the same age as your daughter 12. Mind you that was in 1962… Anyway my Endo, Dr. Dube, had tried every regimen he could come up with, and nothing worked consistently. (Urine testing didn’t help much either, but that’s a different story.)

So in desperation he tried something new and totally different. He changed my meds to 2 shots of intermediate speed insulin and 2 pills a day. Mind you these pill s were ONLY supposed to work for Type 2s. Brand name was DBI, generic Phenformin. These pills limited the liver and other tissues output of glycogen, the storage form of glucose. MY tissues apparently were dumping glycogen at various times, not necessarily on any schedule that we could determine at the time.

Once we got the regimen in good order I had only minor hypos (usually from exercise) and no highs as long as I stuck to the diet. He found that this worked for 5 other Type 1s in his practice, but not all. We all became model patients. BTW I was in the hospital at diagnosis in 1956, and haven’t been back until they introduced Human Insulins in the 80s and my Endo was skittish about me replacing it at home, and again when I trained on the insulin pump in 1993. Dr. Dube had retired by then, and his son had never trained anybody to use an insulin pump, so he played it safe with me being in the hospital.

I used that regiment from 1962 to ~1976 when Phenformin became the first drug that the FDA removed from the market for safety reasons. It has been replaced by Metformin, which was finally cleared by the FDA in the mid 90s. Since then I have heard of some T1s using Metformin with NPH or whichever intermediate speed insulin the doctor prefers.

Just an idea, which REALLY needs her endo to handle, IF he thinks it worthwhile. Of course an insulin pump is the normal answer these days.